Curse

Undivine · Feb 02, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

I love mesmers. But I must concede that, sadly, mesmers are far more useful in PvP than they are in PvE. This I think stems from the fact that mesmers can do a lot of harm, but to only 1 person at a time. It's a bit sad, actually. People will bring me along in some very specific missions when there's an annoying monk or two they need me to take out, but no one will bother picking me up for anything else. In fact, often when a group really wants me, I have to make my build around 1 specific moment in that mission, and be less useful for the rest of the mission.

Let's start with AOEs. Rangers have Barrage, traps, choking gas and ignite arrow. Necros, the mesmer's hexing cousin, has plenty of things, including AOE hexes, hexes that cause AOE effects around the hexed target, wells, so on, so forth. Eles, warriors, even smiting monks, they all have effective AOEs.

The Mesmer has some AOE spells, but look at them! I've tried a build around Fevered Dreams with a friend who focused on causing conditions, but it didn't achieve a lot for the amount of effort and specialization we had to do.

Signet of Weariness is good, but sucking out 9 or so energy isn't hurting mobs, stopping them, or even slowing them. It's a minor inconvenience for them. Thanks to the effectiveness of the rest of the group, those mobs are going to die before the mana loss has had any chance of turning the tide of battle.

Cry of Frustration costs loads of mana and has a long recast. Rangers can achieve the same effect in rapid succession with choking gas, and they don't even have to time it to the enemy's skill usage. If you time Cry of Frustration badly you just lose 15 mana and an interrupt for 20 seconds - one of your only two interrupts that can interrupt a non-spell.

By comparison, look at how effective the necro is with his spiteful spirit, with his well of profane, with his shadow of fear. These all have devastating effects.

I'm not saying the Mesmer should be like every other class. He should be the king of shutdown, mana denial, trickery, so on. But AOE variants of these would help enormously. Such a thing would help the mesmer in PvE and not overpower him in PvP, since humans are generally smart enough to stay well apart from eachother.

Another problem is recharge. I can brag to my group that I took out that one guy then sat around shooting the next one with my wand waiting for my skills to recharge. Mantra of Recovery is a joke, with it's huge mana cost and elite status.

It is my hope that the skills they introduce in Chapter 2 remedy these PvE woes while still keeping with the theme of the mesmer. I play a mesmer because I like what he can do. But now I'm thinking, what can he do? Seems like the mesmer works best as a secondary class, which I find rather sad.

Raxxman · Feb 02, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Mesmer isn't your only class. Can't you use the mesmer spells mixed with your secondary to be effective throughout the mission?

Also shutting down monks isn't minor, It makes the game so much easier if the monk kills himself with backfire

ange1 · Feb 02, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

the thing is with mesmer primary, it's hard to find groups in pve

DarkerHelmet · Feb 02, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I'm sorry but I disagree, although this is because I'm not focussing on Me skills only perhaps.

I'm a Me/N and I'm now happy with my strongest pve build so far. At first I thought Me were really meant to interrupt casters and such, but recently I changed my build to do real damage, and I love it.

I've put all my attribute points into Illusion (15) and Blood (12) and the rest into fast casting. Here are my skills;

Life Siphon
Conjure Phantasm
Phantom pain or Well of Blood
Vampiric gaze
Shadow strike
Clumsiness
Offering of Blood (E)
Rez signet

I've found this build to take down almost anything I wish, although it certainly isn't a soly build it does help any group to take out foes really quick.

Just start either with life siphon (I only use this a lot when I feel foes will aggro on me or when I'm starting to loose hp) or with shadow strike. Shadow strike does 41dmg and 41 hp stealing with hp>50%, then I cast clumsiness which interrupts next attack and does 92 dmg, most foes are <50% hp by then (if team is taking on that foe), I cast conjure phantasm + LS, use offering of blood, cast Vampiric gaze (52 hp stealing) and if needed shadow strike (I mostly wait for gaze to recharge). 90% of the time the foe is dead at this moment.

The problem with Me of course is the weak armor, aggroing foes on you often result in a quick death even with life stealing from blood magic. Therefor you still need to stay at the back and/or run to safety. Other then that this build allows me to single handed take out lvl28 foes like the gouls in the new UW and most others. I really love it:P

Offering of Blood is the best skill for energy renewal IMO and combined with Vampiric gaze and/or Life siphon and/or Well of Blood you regenerate hp quickly.

I often get nice remarks by players (PUGS) who are surprised that I can outlive most others and still take out enemies after they've died. This is my fourth char and not even that much experience yet (300k) but I prefer it over my Ranger (unless in a trapper group) Warrior and obviously my Mo anytime in pve :P.

I guess there's still things to change to make it even better but until now I'm most happy with my pve Me/N, hope this helps.

Omega X · Feb 02, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Yes, mesmers spells exclusively does lack compared to the other classes. But seems to work very well combined with other classes. They should make the Mesmer able to carry itself using the primary only.

jciardha · Feb 02, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Hm. Going to make a totally baseless assumption here, so slap me down if I'm totally wrong.

I play with mesmer skills exclusively in PVE, with the occasional Glyph of Renewal from the ele secondary. I've gotten compliments and kudos for basically hosing the opposition, mainly because I don't stay focused on a single target. Instead I switch from target to target, dropping hexes and interrupts, depending upon what that target is doing (split-second snap judgements FTW).

For example, in HOH UW: the first terrorweb dryder gets Power Blocked, the second one has its energy ripped out with Guilt; Wastrel's Worry and Empathy over multiple Grasps of Insanity, Power Drain a terrorweb's Fireball, topped off with an Energy Surge that was stolen from a Scythe of Chaos via Arcane Thievery. And for the record, I've done all listed above that in a single combat in HOH UW.

Oddly enough, I'm almost always the last one in the HOH UW party left standing after a bad pull.

EDIT: I'd really like to see a new mesmer skill in Ch2, that's a combination of Guilt and Backfire, whereby the enemy's spell is actually turned on them. Oops, that poor ele just cast a meteor shower under that hex and wiped out his own party.

"Friendly Fire," "Blowback," whatever you want to call it. Probably severely overpowered and open to abuse, but it would fit in with what the mesmer concept is.

Jetdoc · Feb 02, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I can solo very effectively with my N/Me, and sometimes wish that I had a Me/N because of the slow cast time of some of my necro spells.

I use 50% Me and 50% N skills, so it shows that Mesmers can be very effective in PvE, even in a solo situation.

The key is that you are a caster and accordingly you can't just stand there and take a pounding. Use hit and run tactics and you'll be surprised how effective you can be, especially if you create a few minions or use pets to distract your foes while you stand back and debilitate them.

Cherno · Feb 02, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I think part of the problem (and one I haven't even attempted to master yet myself) is that a mesmer is most effective when they are switching between targets in a mob. Most of the other characters are "Called target, attack until dead, move to the next target"

I find myself doign that with my mesmer too. So while I may be sucessfully interrupting the hell out of one elementalist, the one right next to us is still doing dmg.

The long recharge times of interrupts really hurts. The cheapest one is 10 or 15 seconds? So if you really want to be strong interrupt, you have to bring 2 or three different ones (and take into account interrupting more than just spells), thus cutting down your options on other offensive spells you can bring. If you miss with that interrupt, it sucks.

I was really disappointed with one of the best early (or late) spells for a mesmer, Chaos Storm. Such a cool spell and almost unusable now since the monsters run out of it almost immediately. Yes that's the smart thing to do and should be the way the AI is programmed, but it renders the spell useless for me.

QuixotesGhost · Feb 02, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

Mantra of Recovery is a joke, with it's huge mana cost and elite status.

It's my favorite PvE Mesmer Elite. Just pick 4 skills that you want to spam and devote the rest of your bar to energy managment.

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 02, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I'm going to have to agree with Jciardha here. For one thing, AoE does not equal effectiveness. True, mesmers don't have a ton of AoE's outside of those that make surrounding enemies lose energy, and Energy Surge, but "Nuking" is not their job. If you're only focusing on one enemy at a time, you're not much of a help. Let's say that you're facing a mob consisting of warriors, elementalists, and a monk. I'll hex a warrior with Clumsiness+Ineptitude, and it'll be shutdown for a bit. The hex another with Empathy, and let it damage itself. Then slap Backfire on the Elementalist, and let it kill itself in just a few casts. And for the annoying monk, put up Arcane Conundrum and start the interupting. As in that case, a Mesmer can pretty much shut down a whole mob of enemies, usually long enough for your party to kill them. And no, Mesmer skills do not necessarily lack when compared to other professions. They're just not your typical, mindless AoE spamming. It just takes more thought and preparation than the others, which is what drew me to play as a Mesmer. I can't wait to see what the new Mesmer skills will be, but as of the moment, PvE Mesmers(who know what they're doing) are not lacking, and do just fine.

Undivine · Feb 02, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Please guys, I'm not a noob. When I say mesmers could use an AOE I don't mean nuking. Mesmers are not nukes, and I know that very well. I know how to play a mesmer very effectively. I've been playing him for close to about 10 months now, on and off.

But I've played other classes too, and despite how powerful Mesmers can be, there's very little reason to bring a mesmer over a different class to a mission unless there is a special case.

Case in point. It is possible to complete the Tombs Underworld with no more than an ele, a necro, a ranger, and a monk. In fact, with the right group setup, a lot of places can be done with very few people, most of the time not including Mesmers. These groups can face 10 enemies all at once. A mesmer can shut down 3 or 4 enemies in one "casting" which is what I call the period of time before you run out of spells to cast and have to sit on your hands waiting for them to recharge.

I do switch targets in battle, but I still find myself achieving more when I play other classes. Often times when I shut down an enemy, they die the next moment by my team mate's efforts anyway. Mesmers can do devastating things to bosses and creatures who are going to live long, but there's so very little they can do to the drones.

Most importantly, people generally do not see the value of mesmers. Call them ignorant if you like, but those ignorant people are everywhere and thus my mesmer can never find a group. Even when I play with my guild, they'd prefer I bring my ranger or my monk.

And I am talking about being mostly or entirely mesmer. I know mesmers make great secondaries.

QuixotesGhost · Feb 02, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

The problem lies more in the stupidity and poor skill setups of PvE monsters than in inherent flaws of the mesmer profession. If we see more improvments like the AOE Fix then we can expect to see mesmers (and shutdown in general) play a bigger role in PvE.

Mavrik · Feb 02, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I'm a PvE Mesmer/Ele and to be honest I do not even use any ele skills and I do not have any points to any ele attributes. Primary Mesmer basicly and I do not have any problems. I was helping with some missions last night and was casting backfire on monks and bosses. One killed himself after casting two skills within 7 seconds which was hilarious to see. But a few people are ignorant to the fact that mesmers can kick some serious ass in PvE. I can get into a group and shut down every skill I can possible and the only comment I might get is "Why does the enemy's health turn purple?" like they have no idea what I'm doing. It would be nice if the mesmer had more multi enemy dealing skills, of that I will agree. It would be nice to cast a skill that cost 3 or more enemies in the area, -5 health degain hehe.

Undivine · Feb 02, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

You may be right QuixotesGhost. Spiteful Spirit is really popular right now only because it is an area effect that the AI does not consider an area effect. The AI does not run away from their own allies.

On the other hand, so many spells are AOE, and it would be a bit of a shame for the other classes to have to put up with further AOE nurfing.

Area -5 degen sounds very nice, though I was thinking more along the lines of AOE shutdown or better AOE mana denial. I really like Signet of Weariness, frankly, but it has a long recast, even with Mantra of Inscriptions.

nitrile · Feb 02, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

I also have a PvE mesmer (using never less than 6 mesmer skills) and though one of my favourite chars to play I actually get to do so the least. To an extent I agree with the utility of having some more AoE skills, and that the "Cry of Frustration" is too often my own when I miss. But I don't personally think, in general that area of effect is the mesmer style. Sure for others choking gas interrupts but it doesn't damage or sap/steal energy. An Elementalist's Maelstrom everything walks out from under, except for the hench healers, so even playing to a secondary isn't a crutch for AoE interrupt and denial; and they can't do what we can do even with what we have.

Of course none of this helps us in pve. There is no easy solution to that; maybe an elite skill that can proof ally/other ally against an interrupt (linked to fast casting if you could arrange it to make sense under that). One thing that does bother me though, is if we're given a new powerful skill akin to SS (not in function, but rather as the only elite skill non-mesmers ever hear of) is that that you would never get into a team without using it. Yes, we're unknown and rarely welcomed by a pick up group but at least in our exile we get to choose our own way to fight.

Area -5 degen is really not very different from a well of suffering, or for that matter a stronger 'suffering', both already existing under necromancer attributes.

It's my opinion that mesmer pve problems stem from ignorance. I'm not saying that people are stupid (though god knows so many are), but they don't see what happens. In a fight, it's difficult sometimes to track what others are doing. It's been said before that when damage bars don't go down around elementalists, people think "wow, gr8 monk" or when things just fall over they think "wow, those level 28 creatures must be wearing ascalon armour" and when the seige wurms just sit and do nothing for 60 seconds they think "damn anet, another bug, they really need to fix this. why does it only happen when there's a mesmer in my party? i'm going to stop bringing them". What is needed is clearer feedback. I don't know if this means all mesmer skills should produce more purple pyrotecnics than new year celebrations but it would be a start. We're powerful enough, played right. if you want AoE interrupt be a water ele secondary or ranger.

Probably doesn't help that Dunham sucks so badly either.

Undivine · Feb 02, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Well I agree with much of what you said nitrile. There is ignorance due to a lack of feedback. But even I am losing faith, being a die hard mesmer fan.

Perhaps part of it is that I used to play an Enchanter in EverQuest. Ah, that was an awesome "sublte caster" class. Most groups viewed the enchanter as essential. We boosted the group's mana, stunned the enemies, weakened them, and best of all, mesmerized them (which works like a stronger Pacifism spell). There were many times when I would save the group from certain doom as an enchanter.

Now I know this is a completely different game and the mesmer, while a bit similar, is different, but I think the comparison of balance is relevant. In EverQuest, the enchanter's spells were very effective because a group would fight only 1 or 2 at a time and the enemies lived for several minutes during that battle. In Guild Wars the enemies are many and they don't have a long life span, except perhaps in PvP where the mesmer shines. I think ANet took inspiration from the EverQuest enchanter, as a lot of MMORPGs have, but it doesn't translate as well for the reasons above.

Really, what does shutdown actually do? Which is the more effective shutdown: mesmer shutdown or death? Groups can kill enemies very quickly sometimes that shutdown is a waste. In these cases, at least we have our trickery spells like backfire. But everything is so situational that we still need to bring those shutdown spells, at the expense of our other abilities, just for the occasion when we actually will need it.

I really think there are more reasons why mesmers don't get picked up than simple ignorance. We are lacking something. Each class can be seen as contributing something essential. Mesmers, on the other hand, are simply "nice to have."

nitrile · Feb 03, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

Perhaps part of it is that I used to play an Enchanter in EverQuest. Ah, that was an awesome "sublte caster" class. Most groups viewed the enchanter as essential. We boosted the group's mana, stunned the enemies, weakened them, and best of all, mesmerized them (which works like a stronger Pacifism spell). There were many times when I would save the group from certain doom as an enchanter.

I'm afraid I'm the one in ignorance on the subject of other online rpg's. An interesting point I think, is the existence of Pacifism and Amity {E} skills under the monk protection line. I always found this very strange. To my mind they're domination. I would suppose this is just one area in which other classes encroach on the 'subtle caster' skills the mesmer provides and simply lowers any need for a mesmer. Of course, I practically never see either Pacifism or Amity used, and pick up groups that won't take a mesmer won't know or respect the rules under which pacifism ends either, so simply 'stealing' protection spells wouldn't change our situation. And as for mana, in guild wars we have a battery necromancer.

Regarding shutdown, I would essentially agree with you, though shutdown on certain targets for 10-15 seconds can make all the difference. Perhaps the only way to make shutdown consistently worthwhile is to add a healer (or two) to every mob. Then a group's option is to bring them down by brute force (takes time) or bring a mesmer to deactivate the healers. A good example of this is the small mobs at the entrances to grenth's footprint which happen to contain dual priests. However this sort of change won't be made retroactively.

Maybe it's just the situation that mesmers aren't so much lacking in themselves (which I believe pvp rather proves; but I don't pvp) , in so much that what I'll call (for sake of argument) traditional enchanter skills are replicated sufficiently well among other classes as to render a specialist unecessary against so many low variety mobs. It's regrettable but a fact that people would rather take a third monk just as insurance against one leaving or disconnecting, because while a shutdown mesmer can protect and negate damage (I play monk often, and it's never so easy than when I go into fissure with a good mesmer), he can't also heal. As you said, one is helpful; the other necessary.

The more I think about this in detail, the more complicated seem the issues against us. Nevertheless I look forward to chapter 2 with some optimism.

Mavrik · Feb 03, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

perhaps what is needed now is for Anet to show enemies energy lv as they already do with health. For example as it would help us mesmers to know how much energy we have left to strip away. We have skills that cause health damage if the enemy loses all their energy. I never know when to use that skill though... But imagine, your in a group, your a warrior lets say. Your attacking a wurm. You see the slow decline of the health of the wurm yet under it is a blue like. Its dropping fast, the wurm takes damage when it hits zero. The wurm takes damage every time a skill is interupted... This is all thanks to the mesmer draining and shutting that wurm down. You can actually see whats being done.

I think this would open a lot of people's eyes to the usefulness of mesmers. Instead most have the train of thought that "Well I can kill it fast enough, it doesn't matter what it casts." But if they could actually see what the mesmer is doing, that he/she is not just standing there waving a wand. If they could see every time a mesmer interupts a skill, drains its health, its energy, hurts it every time it attacks with skills and spells. I've had enemies kill themselves just attacking my mesmer while I did not even attack them with my weapon. Just with skills. Its so fun.

Kool Pajamas · Feb 03, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

I think the most important thing is that Anet develops some better Monster AI and groupings. Instead of having a large mob of 20 warrior or ele enemies, have a smaller more balanced group more like you would see in Pvp. More monk enemies mixed in. A lot of monster groups have about 1 monk to heal about 20 warriors or Rangers.

And the monsters should have a better skill selection. It seems most monsters have about 3 skills that they use.

And choas storm should be enlargened and/or have its recharge reduced.

Kook~NBK~ · Feb 03, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

I love my Mesmer skills! You CAN spread the damage around using mesmer skills alone. - put Backfire on a caster, Empathy on a melee creature, and use interrupts / energy degens on differnt caster (or casters) Although a mesmer is not cut out to for solo farming, in PvE teams, a mesmer can do a great amount to help decimate a mob real quick and in a hurry!